Talk:Cleaning a Bearing
RE:RE:Solvents It is contradictory to suggest not using petroleum-based valve oils while suggesting the use of 3-In-One. What vegetable oils do not dry? Vegetable oil will gum turn rancid. Is there any confirmed or official word on the contents of YoYoJam Thin/Thick lubes from YoYoJam or a representative? It is not responsible to assume or relying on word-of-out from potentially unreliable sources. Polycarbonate plastics have Excellent chemical resistance to mineral oil and petroleum jelly and Good resistance to paraffin oils. RE:Solvents Correct. Acetone does not corrode metal. It is a great solvent but for bearing cleaning it is difficult to use for the novice. It evaporates quickly leaving behind residue and lubricants. Acetone is widely used as a lab solvent, it is a fantastic general solvent. Especially as a final rinse to ensure equipment is free of oils usually deposited from the hands or skin. It is true that all the solvents you listed are highly flammable and will irritate the skin if used often and some will remove oils from skin instantly, ie ether. The notion that something 'could' damage plastic, especially polycarbonate, is enough reason not to let trumpet valve oil contact plastic. My concern over any petroleum distillates primarily concerns polycarbonate, a widely used plastic in yo-yo manufacture. Polycarbonate is highly prone to crazing, cracking and loss of strength when exposed to most petroleum distillates. Better to err on the side of caution since contents are not usually listed. You are also correct that synthetic does not equal safe for plastics. The safest bet for lubricants in contact with polycarbonate are non-drying vegetable oils. It just so happens that one company sells a thin and thick lube that are likely to be exactly that. This company also makes yoyos that are very dependant on the specific qualities of polycarbonate that are lost when crazing and cracking occur. I agree with your take on "natural" as well. "Organic" is another one of those nasty appropriated words. It simply means carbon based. My edit in 'advanced tech' clearly states that "nearly pure" isopropyl is a suitable solvent and that rubbing alcohol is not. There are certifying bodies that grade solvents according to their purity. Ultra pure is a general term not a grade of solvent. If I were cleaning a mass standard weight ultra-pure would mean that I would make sure to distill and purify any solvent until I was personally certain of it's purity regardless of it's grade. Does this help clarify anything? Sixtoe 20:09, June 23, 2010 (UTC) Solvents Acetone does not corrode metal. Acetone does not cause rust. Rust is a reaction between iron (steel) and oxygen. Acetone, as opposed to solvents such as Mineral Spirits, does not leave an oily residue. This is why bearings cleaned in Acetone are more prone to rusting if not coated with oil. It is noted that Brake cleaner (acetone, naphtha, alcohol) is highly flammable and will irritate the skin, so are all of the other petroleum solvents. Though it is more volatile than mineral spirits which evaporates slower than water. Trumpet valve oil damaging plastic It can depending on its formulation, but unfortunately knowing the exact contents of substances isn't always available. The notion that because something is a "petroleum distillate," it will damage plastics, is incorrect. The notion that because something is labeled "synthetic," it is safe for use on all plastics is incorrect. Just like the notion that because something is labeled "natural," it's good for you or better for you than something artificial. Poison oak is 100% all-natural, you don't see cosmetologists clammoring to blend it into their latest cosmetics, lotions, and creams. Facts & Myths Petroleum Distillates - http://www.protectall.com/artpetdist.aspx Looking up a chemical resistance sheet & MSDS is much more reliable than any presumption. Testing Solvents to Determine Suitability for Bearing Cleaning Regular rubbing alcohol is (denatured) Isopropyl alcohol with water. There are special types such as wintergreen which may contain other ingredients. What are "ultra-pure" solvents? The cleaning solvent of choice in labs is acetone? Lighter fluid *Comment: I beg to differ on the lighter fluid comment. Zippo or Ronsonol work just fine. Have used them for many years w/o problems. --jhb8426 **Thanks for stopping by. Wikipedia suggests Zippo is naphtha, and Ronsonol redirects to naphtha, so they're probably ok. However, it mentions naphtha is carcinogenic, so perhaps we shouldn't encourage its use. --Wilfred (talk| ) 17:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Xylene *Is the stuff safe to use? We have safety warnings on a lot of the other solvents and I wouldn't want readers to think it is safe if it isn't. --Wilfred (talk| ) 10:13, 7 May 2006 (PDT) Things to do #If someone can edit the ultrasonic section, that would be great. I can't because I've never done it myself. --Wilfred (talk| ) 11:10, 30 April 2006 (PDT) Comments *What's with the boxes? Is it a quote from somewhere? I'd like to just hack the information out and try to neaten up. --Wilfred 09:24, 9 Feb 2006 (PST) **OK, I'm going to start pulling the information from sixtoe out of the boxes and into the article. It makes it easier to read IMO. --Wilfred (talk| ) 12:16, 20 February 2006 (PST) *Can someone expand on the ultrasonic section? Using detergent on any bearing seems stupid to me, but I know nothing about ultrasonic cleaners. --Wilfred (talk| ) 10:22, 3 March 2006 (PST) *I expanded on the ultrasonic section. It is ok to use water and water-based detergent cleaners. They are great for cleaning all sorts of metal and present a problem only if there are metallic ions in them that enhance the rate of corrosion due to the meeting of two dissimilar metals. That is why it is important to rinse a bearing with distilled water after cleaning and then make sure it is dry and oiled immediately afterwords. And example is firearms. No doubt people love their firearms and water based cleaners as well as solvents are used to clean them with the aforementioned caveats. It is usual to dry a bearing when using solvents so no real step away from that when using water either. Detergents can safely remove proteins, like skin cells and hair and body oils(which contain proteins), where most common household solvents cannot easily do this. I have cleaned many bearings with accumulations of detritus that were impervious to use of solvents that came clean in hot bath of Dawn and water with no ill effects after being dried and oiled. I would like to see a mild detergent cleaning kit that kids can use so they wont be exposed to solvents which are harsh, often carcinogenic and have fumes can cause lung irritation. IMO children should not use solvents at all because of these reasons. Sixtoe 18:52, May 16, 2010 (UTC) *Sorry for my original edits being so bad long ago rereading them is sort of embarrasing. I was unbelieveably anxious making the edits and did not return for a long time. Since then my wiki editing skills have improved and I have gained much experience in cleaning metal as well. I should clarify my statement in the previous post. It is no problem to use water in this context it is only an issue when there are significant amounts of metallic ions. Ogygen is usually cited as the culprit when referring to rust but this is only when moisture is left on a metal. Rust from seawater is an example of why metallic ions are a more serious issue. That is the sodium ion at work. Anyway, clean and dry and oil. No problem. JHB mentioned that he used naptha in lighter fluid without issue but how is anyone to know that cellularly he is free from damage? Should we give info to children on solvent use withou serious due warning? It is highly serious stuff and worthy of rewording in the rest of the article to help remove liability to the wiki and its editors. I hope I have been clear on liability and my edit to this point can set an example for other edits on the wiki regarding liability and concern for children. Also, do the watch glass experiment on any lighter fluid and tell me if you want what is left behind in your bearing. I know I don't. Those chems are at least obstructive and at worst corrosive. Sixtoe 19:14, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :I have a bit of an issue with this page after reading the latest edits. "Advanced Techniques," "Use the following instructions at your own risk," and "Testing Solvents to Determine Suitability for Bearing Cleaning". We are talking about a yo-yo, a child's toy, on a wiki that we are expecting to be visited by kids as young as 5-7 years old. You may be able to use water on steel but it must be done properly. From all my research and experience, however, water is rather corrosive to steel. Since you have been complaining about us not citing sources for our information, where are your citations for this? Do we really expect young kids to be doing things completely exactly? I wouldn't suggest doing what the latest edits say to do to someone well versed in these kinds of things and there is no way I would even mention it to some child. You have to remember, Sixtoe, that this isn't Wikipedia. We aren't trying to get the most comprehensive article. We want all information to be suitable for all ages due to this being a wiki on yo-yos. --Mrcnja 19:35, May 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Aye I completely agree. Using an ultrasonic cleaner is also not something a child would or should do. This was not contested. This involves plugging and unplugging an electrical device which is inherently unsafe as well. Solvent use also is unsafe. Should a child use any solvent with the risk of damage to eyes, skin, and lungs with normal use or accidental ingestion not to mention uncertain relations to cancer causing effects on most polar solvents? Bearing damage from using water seems the less important issue but I do acknowledge the issue. I don't have an issue if you want to remove the Advanced Techniques I have edited and added. Also, it is not even remotely safe for a child under 18 to use a solvent in a water bath driven by an electrical source wouldn't you agree? This was left untouched in this article for a long time. I was very explicit in my #Risks edit to clearly state that no person under 18 should do any of the following regarding using solvents in an electrical device. Is there a policy to remove all unsafe or potentially unsafe activities on this wiki? If so, let me know and I will do that. No problem. ::Also, concerning my desire for citation. I am the authority when posting my information as I have used water and solvents and ultrasonic cleaners to clean bearings as well as many other metal objects with zero rust or corrosive effects when doing exactly as I have outlines. If you really want me to go to Wikipedia lengths on it I can do this on specific points. I suspect that the issue is that I am being called to do it to justify my previous call for citation and I feel that this is now unnecessary. I have considered what Rick has said on the subject of citation and I have relaxed my viewpoint on this issue because his points are valid and important. It is indeed less of an issue for me than it was and it was never a huge issue to me in the first place. Just one I have been verbose about because I had not considered the differences between this wiki and Wikipedia in nature or purpose. ::On some specific points. Water is corrosive. It is not as corrosive as one might expect on chrome and stainless steels that are the most common metals used in yo-yo bearings. As an Advanced Technique I would expect that these may be "Adult" Advanced Techniques. Why not put some scientific process that elucidates a principle underlying the need to clean a bearing in the first place as well as providing a launching point for a person to learn more about science through an interest in the sport? I also don't' understand why it is a problem to be comprehensive in a subtopic clearly labeled as advanced. Isn't lubrication enough for children to keep bearings working sufficiently without cleaning? Why go to any lengths beyond that if comprehensive information is not required or desired? ::If we are to make this wiki suitable to all ages. Let's do it across the board. I can see the validity in your reasoning here. Let's remove all information that is harmful to anyone who is capable of reading this wiki. I don't mind my edits and contributions going into the wastebasket so to speak as a change on whole to the general information presented here. I am sure if you ask any MD in the country if solvent use is truly safe for children they would say emphatically 'no'. Who are we to judge marginal issues relating to child safety? Why mention solvent usage to a child at all if it is unsafe? I am a bit unsure where to place my thinking on this subject because I have two opposing viewpoints in my own mind. What exactly is an acceptable use of unsafe practices where children are concerned? All products containing solvent are usually marked "unsafe/unsuitable for use by children". ::Please help me here Mrcnja. I am not making these point to be stubborn or attacking but because I perceive a conflicting message in your post. Help me to be more sure of your points. Also don't think that I will balk at a removal of my edits in this wiki. Over time as I learn I might have more clout in pressing retention my edits for but I defer to all more tenured editors here for the simple reason that I am new. I don't expect senior editors here to chase my edits for suitability or appropriateness but I am 39 years old and capable of determining suitability myself if given an outline of procedure, policy and guidelines. So far all of the edits to articles made by senior editors have been seemingly trivial and I don't understand the backlash I am perceiving here. I am honestly looking for some guidance on this so can you please help me and validate any points that I have made that are worthwhile as well as critique my edit? Thank you. Sixtoe 21:31, May 16, 2010 (UTC)